EPISODE 5: PJ Zakis / Z Space Design
PJ Zakis of Z Space Design on Why Restaurant Branding and Interior Design Belong Together
Jaci Lund talks with PJ Zakis of Z Space Design about the relationship between restaurant branding and interior design. After collaborating on multiple restaurant projects, they discuss why the strongest concepts bring branding and interiors together early, how cohesion shapes the guest experience and why repeated collaboration makes the final result stronger.
WHAT THIS EPISODE ANSWERS
When should a restaurant bring in its branding team?
PJ argues that branding should be involved early because it creates a foundation for the identity, messaging, colors, materials and experience that the interior design can build around.
Why do Treebird Branding and Z Space Design collaborate so closely?
PJ says the combination of a strong branding company and strong interior design company creates a more powerful, cohesive message for the restaurant and its guests.
Why does restaurant branding matter beyond the logo?
The conversation connects branding to menus, colors, physical materials, environmental details, perceived value and the total guest experience.
WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT TREEBIRD
“The collaboration between a branding message and then the interior design creates a powerful cohesive message.”
“The power between a strong interior design company and a strong branding company is something that the client doesn’t know they need till they need it.”
“Your logo couldn’t have set the tone to what we should have been doing from the beginning any better.”
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Announcer (00:08)
You're listening to Beyond the Logo. Jaci Lund, founder and creative director of Treebird Branding explores what it means to cultivate a brand that endures actionable branding advice rooted in an audience first philosophy and candid conversations with clients about the challenges they faced and the creative solutions that transformed their business. This is thoughtful strategic guidance for visionary business owners who understand that great branding isn't launched. It's cultivated. If you're ready to invest in branding that creates lasting impact, you're in the right place. Welcome to Beyond the Logo.
Jaci Lund (00:46)
So today we are chatting with PJ Zackis from Z Space Design, one of our absolute favorite collaborators. They are an interior design group. They focus on restaurant and so we have collaborated now on I think maybe four or five.
PJ Zakis (01:04)
Yeah, I tried to write them down.
Jaci Lund (01:05)
Yeah. Many years and many collaborations at this point and I adore working with you guys and I love to see both of our efforts coming to life in a space in a restaurant. And so that's kind of what I wanted to chat about today is the marriage of interior design and branding. I feel like we're kind of like the door opener for a business and y'all are the confirmation. Oh yeah. So tell me kind of big picture, how do you see that marriage between interiors and branding and what it does for any given business Like a brick and mortar.
PJ Zakis (01:38)
Right. Yeah. JC, first off, thank you so much for inviting me. It's an honor. No pleasure. PJ Zakis with Z Space Design. We've been designing restaurants and my father is celebrating his 50th year. I'm celebrating my 16th and if I go 50, I'm going to have other questions. But over those years we've learned that there's a lot of consultants in the sandbox you're playing with, whether that's a contractor, whether it's engineers, architects, and then it's the consultants that the owner not only needs to bring in ahead of time but just needs to bring in in general. And that's those branding teams. We've had success, Z Space and Design and Treebird have had great success in the past on multiple restaurants. I'm very proud to say that whether you've entered the project and we've had half of it designed, whether it's a paper napkin concept and you brought us the project, the collaboration between a branding message and then the interior design creates a powerful cohesive message and the identity that the client doesn't know how to create yet.
Jaci Lund (02:49)
Yeah. And all of that coming together, that's how you build trust with your guests is when you have that cohesion. And so the fact that we get to collaborate along the way and so closely I feel like it just makes for such a great experience then for the client and then their guests.
PJ Zakis (03:04)
Absolutely. Yeah. The power between a strong interior design company and a strong branding company is something that the client doesn't know they need till they need it. And once these individuals like ourselves then collaborate, then here we are on our fifth, our sixth, seventh restaurant, we begin to know things and ask each other questions that the client even doesn't even know how to connect us to. Whether that's ideas of a logo color scheme, we've gone down the rabbit hole designed an entire restaurant and here JC's like, "Oh, by the way, we've changed the colors. Here's the
Jaci Lund (03:43)
New logo." I was going to bring that up. Yeah, we tried. So yeah, we had a client that they brought to us a wonderful client. The interiors were done. They kind of got to the branding a little late in the game. We did everything in the colors that y'all selected in every single version. The client time and time again wanted these different colors. And so we were like, "Okay, so we put different colors in. We probably owed you a heads up." But yeah, I got a call from your dad being like, "What did you do? " I was like, "We tried, I promise you. "
PJ Zakis (04:15)
We were almost confused, but that's the kind of thing that happens and that's okay. I'm very grateful to say our small business, our repeat referral gorilla improvis mentality of a business model, we were like, "Okay, well then this is what it is. " This is what it is. And it also looks amazing.
Jaci Lund (04:33)
It does. It's so beautiful at restaurant. And
PJ Zakis (04:35)
Your logo couldn't have set the tone to what we should have been doing from the beginning any better. And had we of course had that information, the client known to have your talents in the early stages, then obviously we would've gotten to the same goal line, but that's the sort of thing that once brought early, we learned that and that's okay. Well, it's
Jaci Lund (04:55)
Much easier to change the colors in a brand package than to change the colors of a design board, right? Yeah. I'm like, you have budgets. There's only so many tiles. So yeah, it's much easier for us to retrofit to y'all than for y'all to retrofit to us, which is why I feel like, yeah, if we can do the branding first, it probably makes life a lot easier. It
PJ Zakis (05:21)
Does set a little bit of a platform, a foundation and an ethos. And I think that's, again, back to the power of messaging, the power of branding. And a lot of clients don't acknowledge that, oh, I'm going to use this brand professional, branding consultant for the first few months. I may not need them anymore, but then they learn as they evolve as the customer and the client and guest evolve your restaurant whether you like it or not. So will your events, so will your popups and the new innovative items you do on menus and you want that cohesive message, changing upholstery is equivalent to an insignia update or a branding update.
Jaci Lund (06:03)
I 100% agree. Yeah. Yeah. So just being a brander and out in the world, it's unfortunate sometimes because I'm always like, "Oh, I see our flaws." There's certain things that, and it tells me stories about like, "Okay, well, that doesn't align. So I think that their chicken is rubbery." It's just stuff like that. I have branding little red flags, like certain fonts that are being used or certain trends that are being used. What are some of your tells in a space that red or green flag that if you see something from an interior that tells you something that maybe other people might not have picked up on?
PJ Zakis (06:42)
Yeah. For me, well, design element wise, I start with the floor and I think my dad would almost say the same. We start with the floor because that is next to the door handle the next thing a guest will touch. It sets the palette. Now as I look at branding identity, today you have ChatGPT, you have AI imaging and the format is the same.
Jaci Lund (07:04)
Same. It's so bad.
PJ Zakis (07:05)
Oh boy. And is
Jaci Lund (07:07)
That not predictable? Hear your design equivalent of that too. Is that just like builder grade that you can just tell they did not invest in this space or?
PJ Zakis (07:16)
Yeah, it can be the items you find on the shelf and that's what differentiates. If I'm going to go to a steakhouse, if I'm going to go to a Mexican restaurant, Italian restaurant, well, there has to be some nuance. There has to be some specific majesty about this place that makes it unique to the other guest experiences I'm going to get from the place down the street. So tell me a different story. And if you're telling me the same story as your competitor, there's a reason why 90% of restaurants are not as successful.
Jaci Lund (07:49)
Yeah,
PJ Zakis (07:49)
Those are identifiers. My wife definitely learned quick what it was like to go to dinner with me, whether I'm looking at the ground, looking at the ceiling, staring at the menu, asking 15 questions to the surfer.
Jaci Lund (08:03)
Yeah. Well, one of mine too is like when we're asked to design a menu, my first question is always, how dark is it going to be in there? And I'm like, I don't even care the content. I need to know how dim your lights are going to be. And this is like part of the marriage between the interiors and the execution of the design, like graphic design is because I know that at this steakhouse they don't want people whipping out their phones and showing the flashlight on there. So it's a big faux pas. And so yeah, people are wanting like, "I want a one-page menu." And I'm like, "Well, you're not getting that with the lights this dim because and the lights are dim for good reason. We want an intimate, really special atmosphere and then you want to give them tiny type. It's not happening." And so that comes up.
Jaci Lund (08:52)
Where are restaurants getting it right when you see interiors and branding?
PJ Zakis (08:58)
Yeah. Where I see restaurateurs investing in these individuals, like a designer and a branding, a manager from the beginning I look at not only the menu but the little accessorizing, the little nuances. These are expensive takeaways, whether it's a coaster, whether it's a napkin in the bathroom that you wipe your hands with, it's all perceived value.
PJ Zakis (09:22)
Today the cost of dinner is going up. That's not to be argued, but it's also something that we're not going to go to restaurants any slower. And so when I see a restaurant or individual start to invest more in their palette and their experience and tell the story, then that right there. And I'm also a service man. To me, service is, I'm going to say it's more important than the food. If my guest experience is only there because I like the way the burger tastes, well, how good do I feel about myself and the dollar I spent to the server and the investment that goes back to the overall house.
Jaci Lund (10:00)
So
PJ Zakis (10:01)
It really is a holistic package that you can tell and that owner spends that dollar for the branding manager, which if you think about the cost of a restaurant to bring on a branding, it's 1% of the overall cost of what you should be spending for this place. Restaurants are not cheap and people don't realize that, but they also don't realize the bang for the buck.
Jaci Lund (10:23)
Yeah, exactly. And this is your multiplier, like your branding piece.
PJ Zakis (10:27)
We're
Jaci Lund (10:27)
Here
PJ Zakis (10:27)
To
Jaci Lund (10:27)
Minimize
PJ Zakis (10:28)
Your percentage of failure.
Jaci Lund (10:31)
These are so good. I loved what you said about perceived value because it is all smoke and mirrors to make sure someone feels great about spending $300 on dinner, right? Right. We're all putting on show. I just love what you're saying about we are going to minimize your risk of failure. You've got the team, we have the experience, we're going to make you look so good for that perceived value like so good. And that is a gift. Yeah.
PJ Zakis (10:55)
You don't have to break the bank. Designing restaurants around Atlanta, Southeast and nationwide we are challenged with not all of our clients have the biggest budget and not everybody does. That's okay. But how creative sets a designer aside, what can you do with that? And so again, when you have a great branding team, when you have a great design team, that's when other elements start to take shape into the restaurant. So how do the branding elements live in the restaurant outside of just a chair, a light,
Jaci Lund (11:28)
A wall?
PJ Zakis (11:28)
With your talents on the logo, knowing that I can reach out to you and get the logo, well, we're going to print that exact font on an inlay in the terrazzo of floor and that is the first thing the guest is going to walk on.
Jaci Lund (11:42)
And that's the surprise and delight. And it's something so simple too.
PJ Zakis (11:45)
Yeah. That sense of arrival that the guest does not know what's in store, but all because I knew I'm going to hit JC up. I know she has the file for the logo. I'm going to send that to my Torazo guy. He's going to cut it out in brass. We're going to lay it into the terrazzo.
Jaci Lund (12:02)
It's beautiful.
PJ Zakis (12:03)
And having the knowledge to connect with professionals like that, you are able to do some fun things with the interiors. Well,
Jaci Lund (12:11)
We even have a client that they had a stamp made of the logo so that it goes into the butter, but also their foigra. So just those little touches like that. So in my opinion, fonts have personalities and colors have feelings. And so we use those to our advantage in branding and style and all of that and color to influence people, but it's really manipulate people. But the nicer way to say it is influence people. No,
PJ Zakis (12:35)
Influence, influence.
Jaci Lund (12:35)
Yeah, we're going to influence people. So what are some of your tricks? What are some of your lighting or flooring? You mentioned that. I love you talk about how people enter the space.
PJ Zakis (12:45)
We are a stickler for little details. So you mentioned lighting. Over my 15, 16 years, I have educated myself on lighting immensely. So I understand dimmability, I understand the controls and how we need to create the scene. Certain recess baffle lights I'll prefer to install a lot of other eye level lighting, indirect lighting where what we're doing is we're highlighting a feature wall, whether it's an Instagrammable moment. It has the mural of the restaurant on there. So I like to play around with lighting a lot and that's where I get to highlight and accent some of the fun things of a restaurant.
Jaci Lund (13:29)
And then how do you manage sound in a restaurant? Because you want that energy, but there's certain ones where you go and you're like, "I couldn't even talk because it's too crazy in here." What do y'all do to manage that?
PJ Zakis (13:41)
You're absolutely right. So when managing sound in a space, I mentioned the floor. We don't do concrete floors. We just don't. We don't prefer them. They're disgusting. Excuse my French. Are they not
Jaci Lund (13:56)
Cleanable?
PJ Zakis (13:56)
They are not cleanable. They're
Jaci Lund (13:57)
Still porous.
PJ Zakis (13:58)
They're still going to absorb, but I digress. What I was going to allude to was that for certain flooring applications, pholstery applications, ceiling applications, we put sound baffling tools, design elements within the space without the guests knowing
Jaci Lund (14:17)
It. You
PJ Zakis (14:17)
Don't even know. No. They won't know. They'll know if they're looking for it or they catch a wall panel. They're like, "Oh, that's interesting. That material, what's that material? Oh, it's soft and it's padded. We're putting alcantera on the walls of a private dining room." And so we'll dress the walls with fabric fire rated, of course. We'll do little tricks because you're still probably going to get a solid surface chair. That happens. If the brand calls for it, if it's a more fast casual, I'm not going to throw leather on there. I may go with an inexpensive vinyl. I may still do an LVT floor, a luxury vinyl tile with a little sound absorbing properties, but at the end of the day, those are hidden within the materials.
Jaci Lund (15:02)
Yeah. People don't even realize all of these things that go into it.
PJ Zakis (15:06)
But to have a conversation with your partner on a table that you're 24 inches across from each other and the lean in, I mean, when the sound is back and forth, you're having the server respond and ask, can they repeat themselves?
Jaci Lund (15:21)
Well, talk about hospitality, right? It's just like we want to create this incredible experience, but we're not considering the sound design and that people are not going to be able to do the thing they meant to do in the space. And so by skipping that step, you're not actually providing what your original mission was for this experience. Right.
PJ Zakis (15:42)
Indirectly with sound and light are subconsciously going to push our emotions in whatever direction they want. And we could be as happy about that burger on the plate as we want to be, but if we can't hear our partner, if it's too bright, if it's too dim, subconsciously our experience is going to be, it's going to be altered.
Jaci Lund (16:04)
Yeah. So what are some more overall themes that y'all have been using or that you're seeing a lot more in this space I think that we're really as a collective moving away from all of the gray, which I'm thrilled about because as a color person and like all of that, looking at gray makes me feel physically ill. So what other kind of more themes and eras are we going into when it comes to interiors?
PJ Zakis (16:28)
Yeah. We're strategically placing greenery
Jaci Lund (16:31)
Than
PJ Zakis (16:32)
Just laying greenery out everywhere. I think that since 2020, we were pushed inside and we brought plants with us. Well, we want to now dine outside and we want the plants with us and we became biophiliacs.
Jaci Lund (16:48)
Yeah, plants are everything. Plants are
PJ Zakis (16:49)
Everything. And so now we brought them in our space and here we are five years later and every restaurant under the sun is buying the same Timu plant, stapling the same stuff to their walls. And that does happen. There are great reputable companies. So where we evolve that into more of a new modern look, something to set the next five, seven year tone is we'll change it with flowers. We'll change different paneling. We'll put it sparsely throughout the space.
Jaci Lund (17:20)
Just like puke up a bunch of flowers everywhere
PJ Zakis (17:23)
We'll strategically use the trends today because as you say, the word trend, we expect it to fade. As things fade, they come back. So if we use them a litle bit, then they'll go a long way. When it comes to restaurants, we will renovate a restaurant, I would say after the five to seven year window based on the volume, based on the high traffic. It's also good for a brand to get a refresh. I
Jaci Lund (17:51)
Was going to say that's about the exact same timeline when it's time to kind of jush it up. That's
PJ Zakis (17:55)
Right. Logo. Insignia. Give me some more love. I've invested as a patron so much of my dollars and you've given me every experience because I'm back, but now it's time for the next generation to enjoy.
Jaci Lund (18:09)
Yeah, that's exactly right too is that a lot of these and a lot of folks that we work with, they are generational brands and the only way to be a generational brand is to appeal to the next up and coming generation, not in a Cracker Barrel situation because they didn't touch their branding for like 20, 30 years. And then it was so extreme that everyone hated it, including the next generation.
PJ Zakis (18:29)
Until they did.
Jaci Lund (18:30)
Yeah. And so if you're renovating the space, let's renovate the brand small strategic touches to make sure that like, hey, we're raising our rates, we're raising our pricing, we want to make sure that we look like we're at that level and we can't be using the same ...
PJ Zakis (18:45)
Yeah, you're so respecting the individuals that got you there.
Jaci Lund (18:48)
Yeah.
PJ Zakis (18:48)
You're investing for the experience that they've invested in you and you're also throwing out that fishing line for new blood. So that is a balancing act. And at the end of the day, you're not going to please everybody. It's a challenge when a lot of brands are met with adversity. When they want to evolve, they're not sure how to evolve. We see it, we've been a part of it and we've gotten down the road with some brands where we're like, "Okay, if you don't want to redesign your space, at least spend X amount and here's what we'll show you what it can look like. " The cost of a branding professional is a drop in the bucket for the
Jaci Lund (19:31)
Overall
PJ Zakis (19:32)
Investment and test the waters because at the end of the day, you're here because you made risks. You took the risks, you've embellished and you've enjoyed the rewards and so they're tough waters for sure, but you're not going to please everybody. We tell our clients that I don't wake up in the morning and I love yellow, I'm going to put yellow in this design. It's not about me. It's about the hundreds of thousands that walk in the door and if I can please a majority of them, then success.
Jaci Lund (20:04)
Yeah. We're going for like 90%, maybe 80. Yeah, 85.
PJ Zakis (20:08)
But it can be a challenge.
Jaci Lund (20:09)
Yeah. So what is a go- to timeless? If I want to make this perceived value of this experience here, let's talk about like super, super high end concept. What is your go- to? We have this trick. We're going to do this every time and it works like a chairman.
PJ Zakis (20:26)
Okay. Now, you know what? So perceived value does not need to be just for the patron. It can also be for the staff.
PJ Zakis (20:35)
You can also design tools to have your staff execute even better. So one concept that we work with, we create a server station. We've done five restaurants for them and in every restaurant we do the same server station with the trash cans on the side, slot for the forks, the knives, the spoons, the napkins, two monitors an overhead shelf for glasses. So systematically we've created these holistic elements that are not just tools and fun things for the guests, but now I've just made that server, Chef, I've made the server system. I've made all these individuals now not only easier to execute, but they're going to enjoy executing because now I have tools and the designer understands. Now that also comes with the 30 years of being in the restaurant business before I started designing restaurants. So I had to learn how to operate them,
Jaci Lund (21:33)
But all
PJ Zakis (21:33)
Of
Jaci Lund (21:33)
The same- Also, if someone needs to go from space to space, they know where the forks are. They
PJ Zakis (21:37)
Know.
Jaci Lund (21:38)
That's awesome. And every
PJ Zakis (21:39)
Restaurant that this owner will put a staff in, whether he's training a manager at location A to location B to move them to location C, they will systematically have the same steps of success, but what might be on the menu
Jaci Lund (21:54)
Might be
PJ Zakis (21:54)
A little different and it doesn't matter because the execution for that patron will be the same.
Jaci Lund (22:00)
Will be the same. That's genius. So
PJ Zakis (22:02)
Again, we're here not just creating for the patrons, but we're building machines. I mean, these machines need to be
Jaci Lund (22:09)
Successful.
PJ Zakis (22:10)
Yeah.
Jaci Lund (22:10)
Oh, that's awesome. So how do you see the relationship now between branding and interiors going in the future? To me, I feel like this is even more of an important time for our collaboration because we can really create such a special and unique experience for people when we work together. Where do you see the future?
PJ Zakis (22:31)
Yeah. Well, obviously AI is here to stay.
PJ Zakis (22:35)
It's been here for years. We've used it in different formats and vehicles if I may. So it's not AI that's going to take your job. It's the individual who knows how to use AI is going to take your job. And I will have to say that really the basics and the fundamentals of design and branding collaboration, that started way even before AI we have today. I have to thank my dad, Peter, but also the individuals he surrounded himself with, a gentleman named Tom Feltenstein and Bill Maine out of California. The late time, they created a concept called Four Walls Marketing. And Four Walls Marketing, that's the combination of beautiful design and branding. So anywhere that guest looked, whether it's the logo on the glass of the front door, whether it's the logo on the menu, we might've had it stitched in a chair or a booth.
PJ Zakis (23:28)
Being able to market yourself in a dimensional plane using the tricks of yesterday, I think will evolve for the tricks for tomorrow.
Jaci Lund (23:37)
Yeah, they become even more important. I
PJ Zakis (23:39)
Use ChatGPT every day, but I don't forget the fundamentals. So how do I utilize the tricks of today with the fundamentals that worked yesterday?
Jaci Lund (23:49)
Yeah.
PJ Zakis (23:49)
Because we're not trying to reinvent the wheel. We want to make the wheel better. Well,
Jaci Lund (23:52)
It's a tool. It's just another tool, but we still need the taste makers. Of
PJ Zakis (23:56)
Course. And so I use AI for inspiration, whether it's chat, whether it's Canva, whether it's Copilot, I'm open to it, but at the end of the day, it certainly doesn't do my work for me. I would love to see that, but-
Jaci Lund (24:10)
It's not there yet.
PJ Zakis (24:11)
It's not there. Well, good. But it's still something. So trends to see for tomorrow, being able to utilize a lot of the social media content we have today, whether that's TikTok or Instagram, we're on those and because each platform's unique, you have to create content for both platform and that's just how it is and that's fine. But then we're utilizing the tricks that were provided with that AI to generate a content and a story we're telling that could look different on Instagram. So it's utilizing the tools of today with the fundamentals of yesterday.
Jaci Lund (24:50)
Yeah. Yeah. I like that a lot. So we've collaborated now on several projects. Y'all have been so generous and you even brought us one of our literal favorite clients, Rich Clark, who's been on this podcast.
PJ Zakis (25:02)
Okay.
Jaci Lund (25:02)
So I got to ask, why Treebird? Why
PJ Zakis (25:05)
Tree
Jaci Lund (25:05)
Bird? I now keep showing us the love. We appreciate you so much.
PJ Zakis (25:09)
I'll be honest with you, you guys not only have great taste, one, that of course helps.
Jaci Lund (25:15)
Thanks.
PJ Zakis (25:16)
But you guys are good at your job. The basic fundamentals of piloting this project from concept to completion in a branding box that's being put into another box of design and that's putting into another box of operation and having these tools all work together. So why we've enjoyed working with Treebird, you guys are good people. We're a small business. There's three of us. If it wasn't for Sylvia, Lord and Mercy, I don't know where my dad and I would be, but in small businesses you're wearing the hat of the accountant, the procurement manager, the logistics department, the janitor, et cetera. And when it comes to working with other small businesses, we see the value that you guys put in and the product you put out for a client that we two really care about. I mean, there's a lot of passion in those small businesses.
PJ Zakis (26:10)
It's tough because we're emotionally connected.
Jaci Lund (26:12)
Yeah. Oh my God. We care so much about our clients. Sometimes too much.
PJ Zakis (26:19)
But that doesn't grow on trees.That doesn't grow on trees. That's something I think why we are successful just like you guys are successful. So not only do you have two powerhouse companies running side by side, but ever so often there's a high five on a project that we're wicked together on and then you guys do talents in other directions. There's a handful of things, but when it comes down to any specifics, again, it comes down to collaborating with the team with good communication and if I know I need that font and I thought of it late, oh my gosh, I should have asked JC for this a
Jaci Lund (26:54)
While ago. I got too.
PJ Zakis (26:56)
I know it's going to happen the next day and we get over to the millwork guys and that spike of anxiety, there'll be another one. So we'll put that one down. You
Jaci Lund (27:06)
Don't have to worry about the branding stuff. We got you. That's it. That's
PJ Zakis (27:09)
It.
Jaci Lund (27:10)
That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming and spending time today.
PJ Zakis (27:14)
Yeah. JC, thank you. Thank you so much for having us.
Jaci Lund (27:16)
My pleasure.
Announcer (27:18)
Thanks for listening to Beyond the Logo. If today's conversation sparked something, a question, an idea, or the realization that it's time to cultivate a brand that truly reflects who you are and connects with the audience you're meant to serve, we'd love to hear from you. Visit treebirdbranding.com to get in touch with JC and the team. Your brand deserves more than a template. Let's grow something that lasts.
